Hydrogen for Fuel Cells: Where will it come from?

So we replace all of those carbon atoms attached to oxygen, (CO2) with hydrogen atoms attached to oxygen, (H2O)in the atmoshpere. So what happens to the earth`s climate when we have all of that water or water vapor in the air. Does it rain more, is water vapor just another greenhouse gas...

"After all, engineers are supposed to look at the whole process..." Engineers often do. The news media sees only the sparkly surface. That''s where the real problem lies - is that the infotainment system cannot NOT lie. Because it is inept, attention-deficit based and sensational - exactly the way it views the public. I get so sick of hearing "Blah has a hybrid that gets 250 MPG!!" (because it''s a plug-in hybrid and they don''t mention the KWs to charge the oversized battery bank) or "It''s a car that runs on WATER!!" (hydrogen - but, again, they don''t count electricity as an energy source). Until the news stops barfing-out hype and starts actually getting to the reality of energy and transportation, we will be doomed to "solutions" that will be based on some new centralized energy system (that can be manipulated) and not the renewable and decentralized energy systems that we really need.

Not much mention has ben made of the fact that hydrogen is slippery stuff. The small atoms will leak through most sealing materials. And to carry enough to be worthwhile, it will need to be at a quite high pressure. So there will be quite a challenge just handling it, and so WAY MORE safety rules, which we all love. Second, while electrolyzing it from water is clean and easy, overall it is not that very efficient, the electrolyzer does get hot. And where will we get the electricity. How efficient is the electricity-to-hydrogen-to-fuel-cell-to-electricity loop? Is it better than good batteries or supercapacitors? Is anybody willing to answer THAT question? After all, engineers are supposed to look at the whole process, not just the neat and fun new technology parts.

I guess I would like to ask the following question: If the technology were in place today to outfit every personal automobile with a hydrogen fuel cell and the infrastructure existed to fill that vehicle in the same general manner as today’s internal combustion vehicle at a similar cost, would I be able to get across mid-town Manhattan any faster? Would I be able to commute in the SF Bay Area or get around D.C. any quicker in the five o’clock hour? Would additional roads still need to be built, existing roads widened, and billions of dollars spent on maintenance in order to accommodate the increasing number of vehicles? I think that the architects of the Hydrogen Economy have an opportunity to not just displace hydrocarbon fuels and decrease our dependence on foreign resources, but also examine the most efficient and humane way to move people and products. Those results might define new urban and suburban designs and systems that could improve not only our emissions as a country but improve our quality of life and cost of living. Perhaps that would be better than simply announcing that you can now drive that SUV guilt and emissions free into the traffic jam of your choice. Funny how that auto industry never advertises one of its vehicles in a congested city or on a road full of stop-and-go traffic. Typically it is on a “closed course with a professional driver”

My god, I hope some of you are not really engineers. An atom and a molecul are two different things. Water is a molecule made up of two hydrogen ATOMS and one Oxigen ATOM. Doh ta doh What really is happening is companies do not want to release a car they can't charge the driver per mile to drive. I say home solar generated hydrogen is the way to go. That way as the process becomes more effecient, you could run your hot water heater and then later your AC off hydrogen.

Hydrogen is the answer! A satori moment! Oh wait. It takes vast amounts of electricity to produce hydrogen from water. We can't build power plants. We can't drill. We can't build refineries. We can't build nuclear plants. Maybe we can get the Arabs to cover the Middle East with solar panels and buy hydrogen from them! Hmmm, maybe that's not a good idea either. Never mind.

All ye engineers, please review your chemistry, physics and thermodynamics. At STP, hydrogen has a poor volumetric energy density and thus needs to be highly compressed (PV=nrt). Pipelines are thus not particularly good to transport hydrogen. Two possible liquid fuels for the future that are suggested by many researchers are methanol (CO2 from coal burning powerplants) and ammonia. They both transport well through pipelines, work well with fuel cells, and can be combusted, especially important for jet aircraft. Solar thermal hydrogen using an iodine sulfur cycle along with a high temperature nuclear reactor for enhanced efficiency electrolysis are options to be explored.

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(Reply to Larry Brown) OK, you have been "playing around" with Brown's gas for 20 years, your own name is Brown, and yet you aren't aware that Brown's gas is NOT "aka (also known as) hydrogen"? It is a MIXTURE, two molecules of hydrogen and one of oxygen, by ratio.

Hydrogen will work very well when it is generated from solar power and shipped through pipelines. Hydrogen may not be as efficient as electricity, but it is easier to store (which is why it is promising for vehicles) and thereby handle rapid variations in demand. Perhaps a better long-term plan is to combine hydrogen with atmospheric carbon to make more easily stored fuel.

Dear Sir, With all due respect, I have been playing around with Brown's Gas aka hydrogen, for at least 20years. Its very easy to generate from plain H2O and it doesn't even have to be clean H2O. Sorry, no need for the highly priced fuel cells either. In the year 1898 the first patent was placed for hydrogen as a fuel source. Now all of a sudden its a revelation?

While the Eliasson and Bossel report "The Future of the Hydrogen Economy: Bright or Bleak?" is a factual, knowledge-based, and balanced study, it is based on a number of assumptions that are very 'in-the-box' thinking. For instance: when transferring pressurized H2 in distribution, you can actually offload ready-to-use pressure vessels (tanks) instead of transferring gaseous H2 from one tank to another. This is just one of many examples of gasoline-like thinking that make up the report. Although there are some serious challenges, moving to a H2 economy isn't quite as crazy as all the naysayers want everyone to believe.

It is typical of most folks today to jump on the rah rah bandwagon on how hydrogen power will reduce/eliminate those nasty greenhouse gases. How woefully ignorant they are especially as currently envisioned with folks needing to stop in at some hydrogen station to "fill-up". In terms of greenhouse gases, the one greenhouse gas responsible for between 75-95% of all greenhouse gases depending on who has published the information shows that to be water. Exactly the waste product from burning hydrogen, and warm water at that in this case as it will be hot from the engine combustion process. The solution to this would be a closed system that would use electrolysis or other method to take the water and break it back up into it's components and then recompress into separate hydrogen and oxygen tanks for use to drive the engine. Whatever remains are not converted, would need to be plugged into an outlet or other method to finish the process. Also, even your usage of the term "fossil fuel" shows that you do not know **** about oil and such. It has already been shown by Nasa with the Casini probe that oil and other hydrocarbons are not fossil fuels but rather a natural part of the geological process. Published in the journals of Science and other magazines. Why not the mainstream media? Who would suffer? Just more fear mongering about a resource which is constantly being replenished as being subject to depletion, all a crock. Same thing goes for the global warming crackpots who'll believe anything. The earth warms and cools quite nicely by itself regardless of human intervention as the sun is the mechanism. This is published as well. While the dumb*** that believe anything the politicians say without thinking believe that man is also at fault for the warming trends on the other planets and moons in our solar system. Learn how to think people, our freedoms are at stake and it doesn't help with all you sheep parroting unsubstantiated disaster scenarios at the drop of a politicians hat.

Before getting too excited about using hydrogen as a fuel source, please read an extensive study on hydrogen fuel "economy" written by Dr. Baldur Eliasson and Dr. Ulf Bossel titled: "The Future of the Hydrogen Economy: Bright or Bleak?" found at www.efcf.com/reports/E08.pdf. You must read this paper before launching into a discussion on hydrogen propulsion for road vehicles.

The chemical make-up of natural gas makes it the easiest and most common way to produce hydrogen by steaming the gas to separate the hydrogen. Although not considered the optimal method, using natural gas for hydrogen production will still dramatically reduce greenhouse gases by more than 60% with current standards, and is the most cost effective method currently in use. Hydrogen can be produced from any renewable resource or from nuclear by splitting water via electrolysis, which eliminates all harmful emissions. Although, creating a hydrogen fueling infrastructure is complex, it is achievable and simpler than it appears. As a representative of the Hydrogen Education Foundation, I have been helping people to understand that hydrogen has been used for decades by other industries, such as agriculture, oil production and even food processing (ever heard of the term “hydrogenated?” – take a look at a jar of peanut butter or the wrapper of a Starburst). More than 40 billion kg of hydrogen are produced globally each year with production plants located near or within every major metropolitan city in the US – enough to fuel 130 million fuel cell-electric vehicles annually. Since hydrogen is used to produce gasoline, switching from gas to hydrogen to fuel our transportation is achievable. General Motors recently released a hydrogen fueling infrastructure assessment that suggests an initial $10 to $15 billion investment, equivalent to about one month of military spending in Iraq, would establish an initial refueling infrastructure within 2 miles anywhere within the top 100 metro areas and along all US highways. The assessment is readily available at: www.h2andyou.org/pdf/GM-SH%20HYDROGEN%20INFRA%20PAPER.pdf. To learn more about the benefits of hydrogen, we invite everyone to please visit www.h2andyou.org.